To retire or leave?
In recent memory there are two gurus within ISKCON who have “fallen down.” One guru covered it up and seemingly had ISKCON cover it up for awhile, then came clean and is now a retired guru/retired sannyasi. The other guru simply left and started a new life.
And so here I am, trying to figure out which is better. Clearly, neither are ideal.
A guru is the person who will be taking you back to Godhead. S/he is a liberated soul and a pure devotee. Obviously, any fall down is pretty well proof (in my book) that this person isn’t presently qualified. Yes, there is certainly redemption and the healing power of bhakti is something not to be taken lightly. However, neither of these ex-gurus have sought redemption (and neither of them have gotten it).
In the first case (Satsvarupa), he lied for two decades, making one of his disciple’s lives hell just so he could be around her. He then had a sexual relationship with her. Yeah, he fell down and there is redemption that can take place, but he doesn’t seem concerned about it. Especially seeing how he covered it up for 20 or so years. Why? Wasn’t there another option?
In the second case (Vipramukhya), he stepped down. He simply stopped being a devotee. He met a woman (who is now his wife) online, started a relationship with her and then stepped down. Now, leaving the devotees is not a good thing, but it seems like he didn’t know what else to do.
While both cases had different outcomes, the situations were strangely similar. Each were in a role that they could not play. Each tried to maintain standards they could not maintain. And though one chose to stay and one chose to leave, they each did so for the same reason.
But here’s the thing. I don’t know what that reason is.
In Satsvarupa’s case, he’s clearly not much more of a sannyasi than I am. Yet there he is, in the garb of a sannyasi, being seen and treated as a sannyasi (even though he has the status of “retired”). Why didn’t he step down? Why didn’t he put on white (or just blue jeans), continue with his painting and writing and just be a normal devotee?
And in Vipramukhya’s case, I could tell that he wasn’t on the up and up by the way his web page was changing. He was doing things on it that weren’t quite what a sannyasi should be doing. Nothing “bad” of course, but just indicators. And soon after that, he announced that he was stepping down to get married and also leaving the association of devotees. Why couldn’t he just put on white and be a regular grhasta?
Why couldn’t these two supposedly pure devotees take the humble position and still remain devotees? I don’t know. But in both cases it’s sad.
It’s sad in Satsvarupa’s case because he’s still playing a role that he’s clearly not meant to play. And it’s sad in Vipramukhya’s case because he’s no longer a devotee.
Folks, we really just have to allow each other to be honest. If our gurus and sannyasis can’t be gurus and sannyasis, at least let them be devotees. It does nobody any good if our gurus and sannyasis are fake. And it does nobody any good if our senior devotees (who were once gurus and sannyasis) leave.
But this is the situation that we put them in. This is because of the pressure that we apply.
All that said, I believe I’ve got more respect for Vipramukhya in his decision. While he left the association of devotees, which isn’t good, he didn’t lie for 20 years, falsely initiating devotees who thought he was pure. He met a woman and decided to leave. He didn’t stick around to make a huge mess that we’d have to make lame ass excuses for. He didn’t put us, as devotees, in a position where we have to create a whole new institution (that of “retired” sannyasi and guru). And most importantly, I don’t feel that Vipramukhya lied to us. Satsvarupa did quite a bit and we still don’t know the whole story. Yet, the “honest” one is gone and the other one is still worshiped.
I don’t have any answers, and I apologize for this basically becoming a rant, but it’s really something we should take a look at.
Related posts:
02/24/2008 at 11:15 am
You just think you are the smartest one…and you just came in this movement few years ago.Try first distributing books for at least 10 years,serve the Supreme Lord and devotees full time in a temple which still has some basic standards and study again and again Srila Prabhupadas books.Then I think your intelligence will be developed enough and your HUGE false ego little bit crushed to write and say something meaningfull.Then you can judge those devootees which did more service to Krishna and Prabhupada then you probably ever will in this lifetime.TRY little more reading and quoting Srila Prabhupada,of course if your false ego allow you to do even that.I am not saying that Satsvarupa is still fit to be a guru,far from that,I am saying you should be more respectful while writing comments about this whole case.
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02/24/2008 at 1:32 pm
Dear knucklehead,
Eric gave me my first book back in 1994. I’m sure he’s been giving out books longer though… so lets see, my math is a little shaky but i think that’s longer than 10 years.
Eric inspired me to become a vegetarian and to follow a spiritual path. He was in my life a short while but he has influenced me and many others very deeply.
Even while driving one day he said to me “Ned, you drive like an asshole.” I took it to heart and now I no longer drive like an asshole.
On reading and quoting:
1st- the most important things in life can be learned in a book? 2nd- did Praphupada teach his devotees to go around quoting him?
Furthermore, I’m sure the supreme lord doesn’t mind service outside of the temple. (that’s where all the dirty work is)
ps- sorry I called you a knucklehead. I’m sure you don’t have a knuckle for a head.
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02/24/2008 at 2:39 pm
Your comments are so sectarious and fanatical.
If you can t see other points of view, and you think you have the absolute truth, you are wrong.
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02/24/2008 at 7:16 pm
“ganga”- I found him to be quite respectful I dunno what the eff you’re talking about. Eric never claimed that he was “the smartest one”- this is just something that’s been on his mind for quite some time, and he’s concerned about it. Can you please show me were he said anything out of line? Something that wasnt true? Maybe YOU should try distributing books for 10 years- or even better- you should READ those books for 10 years. Then maybe you’ll get it.
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02/24/2008 at 7:50 pm
Nice piece Eric. Vipramukhya das wasn’t my own fake Guru and I might feel differently if he was but I wish him well and hope that he continues his spiritual journey with support from the devotee community. I’d have no problem sitting and having a chat or a chant with him. Satsvarupa Swami on the other hand makes me feel physically sick at the very sight of him. He’s also not my own fake Guru and I’ve not had any bad experience with him personally. Still, I see him and feel as though I just stepped, barefoot, into something nasty, and I don’t mean spilled sabji from lunch. Maybe I’m just a big ol’ demon. Yeah, that could be it. I don’t know.
On one matter, I do have a different opinion. You say “this is the situation that we put them in. This is because of the pressure that we apply” now I don’t really understand how “we” are putting pressure on them. Sure there’s pressure, but isn’t it coming from Sastra, Srila Prabhupada and the disciplec succession? The standard is high but for good reason. They are personally responsible for delivering those they have initiated. That’s the deal. So when a Guru gives initiation, he is saying that he’s qualified. The laws that prevent a person posing themselves as a doctor are there in order to protect the innocent who could be harmed. The standards set by sastra are there to protect the disciple AND the Guru.
Now let’s suppose we’re on a plane and the pilot has a heart attack and dies (hope no-one’s reading this on a plane). There’s no co-pilot and the only chance we have is a guy who’s been studying to be a pilot and has some hours in a flight simulator. He promises to do his best and try to follow what he’s learned. Now if this guy lands the plane safely, three cheers and a 7-Up for him. If he cracks under the pressure, fair enough, we plummet like a coconut laden swallow but he did his best, three cheers and a 7-Up for him. Let’s back up a bit, what if, after the pilot dies, some guy pushes to the front and declares himself a qualified pilot. Naturally we would all vote for him rather than the trainee pilot. If this guy starts to crack and make mistakes, perhaps because he wasn’t as qualified as the mail order diploma company said, but he refuses to admit it, even when the trainee could do better, should he continue to be in the driving seat? Should he get three cheers and a 7-Up?
I don’t know, perhaps I’m just a demon and can’t see what a wonderful job our pilots are doing. Is the engine supposed to be on fire?
Dwija (maybe I’m a demon)
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02/24/2008 at 9:25 pm
I’m not sure how you thought that I was trying to be “the smartest one.” I *did* say that I didn’t have the answers. If that makes me the smartest one, then we’re all in a bit of trouble.
I should read Prabhupada’s books more. I bet we all should.
As for being respectful, I was relatively very respectful when compared to most other stuff I’ve read about both.
Oh well, I tried.
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02/24/2008 at 9:26 pm
Haha, I said that you were driving like an asshole? haha.. Damn, I’m sorry. But I’m glad it helped. Heheheh.
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02/24/2008 at 9:28 pm
I guess what I meant was that we (ISKCON folks) make it hard to be anything but worshiped. And you’re right, the pressure is there from Prabhupada and sastra, and it should be. But I think I’m talking about more of a social pressure that makes it difficult for sannyasis and gurus to be honest when they’re not behaving like sannyasis and gurus.
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02/24/2008 at 10:26 pm
I just saw Vipramukya’s (now Wayne Boyd’s) website….I dont know what to say….It brought back a lot of stuff for me….and it makes me wonder too, I feel like he dropped Krishna Consciousness too easy. I mean, he makes it more like a phase of his life that he’s over now. If he could get over it that easily and quickly then…i dunno. All that’s running through my head right now is remembering when I was reading his final letter and I frantically tried to contact him, to beg him to stay in Krishna Consciousness no matter what, but it was to no avail. I feel really weird and sad.
See, I can understand if you want to stay away for a little while- when something major happens and affects practically the whole world- you probably need your space. But its like he doesnt even hanker a little. I mean, at least stick a link or two about ISKCON or Srila Prabhupada in there. but nothing. Just a thing about his life and about his stupid wife. I think what im getting at is- if so many people could believe that Vipramukya was a good enough to not only be a guru for hundreds of people but also be a leader for a worldwide organization- then how many people out there have we taken shelter of can we trust? And then, if he could brush off being Hare Krishna like dandruff on his shoulder then what is my chance of survival?
To both Satsvarup and Wayne- You make me sick.
Sorry to ramble.
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02/24/2008 at 10:45 pm
I do know what you mean. And you’ve got a damn good point in: “if so many people could believe that Vipramukya was a good enough to not only be a guru for hundreds of people but also be a leader for a worldwide organization- then how many people out there have we taken shelter of can we trust?”
We’ll probably never know the reasons why he left. But he really does seem happy now. As opposed to when he was a devotee, when he seemed trapped.
I would love to see him come back some time. But if he doesn’t, like he said, he’ll just pick it up in his next life.
He doesn’t make me sick. At least he’s being honest.
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02/24/2008 at 11:16 pm
The bottom line is that it’s up to you to ascertain the level of the association that you take. You can’t surrender to an impersonal institution that rubber stamps gurus and senior devotees.
If it’s up to you to ascertain the qualification of the guru, then what does that mean? That there is a minimum qualification for a disciple, and that’s it – knowing who is a bona-fide guru.
The GBC says that their allowing a devotee to initiate does not guarantee that that devotee is a bona-fide guru. It just means that no-one in the institutional power structure has registered an objection to them initiating.
The other thing is that at any point up to prem a person can take their surrender back. Vipramukhya prabhu will return to the path, for there is no loss or diminution. He’s just chosen to take a side road, and it was pretty clear for a while before he went down it where he was heading, if you knew what you were looking for…
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02/24/2008 at 11:54 pm
I know he’s happy, but thats whats getting to me- he doesnt miss Krishna Consciousness even a little? For a person who was so influential not even a decade ago- he doesnt think about Hare Krishna even a little?
Even though Satsvarup lied for 20 years about his relationship with a woman, couldnt you say that Vipramukya lied about his desire to leave Krishna Consciousness for just as long? Here’s the thing- I think he’s wanted out for years and his wife was just the out he needed. How can anyone leave Krishna Consciousness without even batting an eye? Both have lied for so many years the difference is that one decided to stick it out and the other didnt- all reasons are left to mental speculation.
Maybe he’ll come back eventually, I’ve heard about devotees who fell down since way back when have started resurfacing here and there.
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02/24/2008 at 11:57 pm
Ya, we were driving in Ruby one day and I was carelessly tailgating somebody. Now I’m very careful to drive a respectful distance.
I’m grateful to you for your being brusque. I wish more people would tell it the way it is. I’m even glad that ganga spoke his mind on this thread, even though I don’t agree with him. Look how much people have written today!
Do you remember giving me the book, Easy Journey to Other Planets? Or something like that? I remember enjoying the book, but I’m not sure I finished it…
I’ll have to get it again, I’ve since lost it.
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02/25/2008 at 12:04 am
I guess not everyone feels the same about it as we do. Some people really like stuff and some people really don’t. Some people used to like stuff a lot and now they don’t like it as much.
Who knows?
And no, we can’t say that Vipramukya lied. We don’t know. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t.
I have no objection to Satsvarupa sticking around. It’s more the way he’s doing it that irks me.
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02/25/2008 at 12:30 am
I was lucky in that in 1991 Satsvarupa told me he’d accept me as his disciple. And then a few months later I was visiting him at Gita Nagari with many other devotees and he wrote to me (through his secretary) to say basically, ‘Sorry I said I’d initiate you a while ago but I’m not taking on any new disciples’. Naturally, I was devastated. But in hindsight, after I found out what happened with him (only a few months ago!), I’m greatly relieved I never took initiation from him. The experience, and learning that he fell down (and how), has made me completely wary of ever taking initiation from anyone. Shocked to learn about SDG, I researched who else ‘fell down’ and became even more convinced that I can only view Srila Prabhupada as my guru. My boyfriend feels the exact same way. We just take Prabhupada’s instruction from his books and lectures and do the best we can in these brief lifetimes. I know some may see this approach as limited but for crying out loud, I think my stance is reasonable in this day and age. Sorry for going on and on but this post really got me going.
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02/25/2008 at 8:54 am
I remember that he’d say that a lot through the 90′s. I’d hear “Satsvarupa isn’t initiating right now because of his health.” And things like “Satsvarupa’s health is so bad because he has so many disciples who have blooped” (which is totally not our philosophy).
And then he’d go an initiate a bunch out of the blue.
My own impression was that he knew he wasn’t really all that qualified, so he’d stop. But then, because of pressure (or false ego or whatever) he’d start up again. I could be wrong, but that was my impression then and it seems to fit now.
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02/25/2008 at 10:06 am
I guess, I just figured that if you spent the majority of your life doing something- you just might put more than a mention on your website.
I dont know if Vipramukya felt this way his entire devotional life- but he disappeared so easily and so quickly- usually they pop up here and there, start their own group or something but he just disappeared. Which is why I feel that his wife was an excuse and not a reason for leaving and that he’s wanted an out for a long time.
Did you ever read his novel? It was about a Hare Krishna being chased by the government for having top-secret information. I just thought that was funny.
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02/25/2008 at 10:09 am
I thought he gave it quite a long mention, considering he just left it all behind.
I’m betting that he didn’t disappear so easily. Maybe he just spared us the details.
It’s possible that his wife was the reason he was looking for. Hard to say though. They both seem really happy. Who can fault them?
I’ve not read his novel. Should I?
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02/25/2008 at 12:09 pm
To me, it seemed more like a chapter in a book. I guess to me, Krishna Consciousness isnt a part of your life, its you.
Maybe my story is a little different. But once that announcement came out it was like “poof!” and he was gone. He deleted all his accounts took everything he wanted and just left- only a letter remained. And it was weird to me because I used to frequent his sites and then suddenly they were either gone or in someone elses name. So…yeah….
I think the novel was one of the things that got deleted so if you can find it and you happen to be a bit bored then go for it.
Oh and yes, I find it weird that Satsvarup still remains a sannyasi. Im cool with him trying to be a devotee and still being active in the community, he does try very very hard. But come on, you fell down with a woman, just let go of the saffron already.
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02/25/2008 at 12:33 pm
The novel is hosted on his website.
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02/25/2008 at 3:48 pm
I know what you’re talking about here, but I doubt I can say it better.
Actually I wanted to start off by thanking Eric for a very good little essay.
As i was saying, I’ve noticed the pressure to be perfect. Even though I’m sure no one expects ME to be perfect (I don’t really want to know), there can be such a dichotomy between transcendental and scum, and we don’t want to be scum because that really means we’re not following the principles and all that. Of course, we also take pride in thinking ourselves scum, probably because it seems humble. Sometimes all the pride and humility and transcendentalism and scum get a little mixed up, and it’s hard to say whether it’s good to feel fallen or not. What we don’t want is for others to think we’re fallen, especially if we really are, and double-especially if we’re a guru.
In case that’s not clear… I’m supposed to think I’m fallen (not a difficult task), and because of that I want others to think I think I’m fallen. But you had better not actually think I’m fallen, especially if I’m a leader in this society. Which fortunately, I’m not.
How’s that for a ramble?
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02/25/2008 at 4:03 pm
I don’t know how he could leave like that. I left for a little less than 2 years (the past year has been a coming-back), but Srila Prabhupada’s teachings must be hard-wired into my brain. I was upset at devotees, even angry at Krishna, but I couldn’t shake my belief in the philosophy. I struggle to keep up, failing miserably, but there is no other belief I can turn to as an alternative. I’m pleased about that.
As for Vipramukhya, he reminds me of the story of Indra being cursed to be born as a pig. He loved his little pig life, thinking it all so happy and important. Of course any intelligent person can see that a pig is not so important, and their standard of happiness is not very great. And so it is with Vipramukhya these days.
These devotees are teaching us how easy it is to fall from the straight and narrow. Perhaps if we were better disciples, our gurus would not have to teach us these lessons.
Both guys are pretty confusing role models.
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02/25/2008 at 5:28 pm
Eric, I now understand what you mean by pressure and I’m inclined to agree. It’s no wonder Vipramukhya felt the need to take himself off the map, so to speak. An army of angry villagers carrying pitch forks and flaming torches comes to mind. The hideous monster, carrying his woman, climbs the windmill shaking his brutish fist and cursing the heavens.
I have an idea. How about declaring an amnesty for Guru’s, sannyasi’s, GBC’s and any other Iskcon leader? For a period of time, perhaps a year, anyone wishing to step down for whatever reason, shall be given full pardon by the devotee community. An atmosphere of kindness and forgiveness is actively promoted with a promise of a fresh start for all. Possibly even a few pats on the back and a “good for you, …..prabhu”.
After that, NO MORE EXCUSES.
What do you think?
Devotees tend to forgive quickly when approached by someone who is truly sorry for their actions. Wouldn’t it be nice to all work together, with only one goal, to please Srila Prabhupada.
Dwija
THE BIG OL’ SOFTY
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02/25/2008 at 6:42 pm
oh haha. I didnt think it would be something worth keeping…
Its not the way i remembered it to be, but then this was about a decade ago that I last read it. But it is still boring and confusing hehe.
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02/26/2008 at 11:04 am
Oh and I thought of someone else that fell down recently. Not so much fell down as much as the GBC finally got around to stripping him of his sannyasi title and somewhat punishing him- Balabhadra Das formerly Bhakti Balabha Puri Maharaj from Scotland. He wrote a book about his wife called “Simple for the Simple” and about it were all the details about her final few days on earth and how she experienced the symptoms of a pure devotee. Quite a good read, she was an amazing personality. However there was one piece in the end, Im not sure if this was his add-in to justify his renouncement or if this actually occurred. His wife was a pure-devotee, many people would come to her seeking advice on their spiritual life and she was able to instruct them properly. One day he asked what he should do once she passes away and she instructed him to take sannyas- didnt instruct more than that. Just to take sannyas. So now, with his fall-down I kinda wonder what that was all about.
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02/26/2008 at 11:04 am
One consideration is that there is so much potential for offense when in a position of leadership or authority over devotees that it becomes easy to fall from a seemingly secure position.
About three years ago I was at a high point in my enthusiasm for Krishna consciousness. My community must’ve noticed because they elected me as to one of three community board positions, in which I had to make decisions for the community. Very soon I was confronted with a political situation that I could not handle. It involved some really big gurus inviting a banned-from-iskcon child molester to our community and lavishly glorifying him.
I objected, and many disciples were offended that I questioned their guru. They ostracised my family and me so much that we left the Hare Krishna movement for two years. This was just four months after my highest devotional peak in a decade.
My experience wasn’t exactly like that of the gurus falling, but there could be some overlap. Making offenses can be extremely bewildering. The only secure position is a humble one.
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02/26/2008 at 11:08 am
Hm. your experience was nothing like a guru falling down. You didn’t think it was a good idea that (so called) advanced devotees lavishly glorify a child molester. That’s a good thing to think! At least you stood up for it. Too many devotees are blind.
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02/26/2008 at 12:26 pm
Eric, I do have a favor to ask you, that if you feel the need to drag all the dirty laundry around in public, you don’t do it in a category that links to Planet ISKCON.
I would like to have just one devotee site to go to that was a safe harbor from all the quarreling.
I don’t disagee with your points, and acknowledge you may have a need to vent, but I am hanging by a thread with having anything to do with any devotees and having Planet ISKCON as one place where I can get some pleasant devotee association without the downside would be nice.
I have decades of the other side to draw on and no lack of sites to see the dark side.
“The gospel of John shares an occurrence of a woman caught in adultery. John 8:1-11 says, “. . .Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
“But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.’ Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
“At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
“‘No one, sir,’ she said.
“‘Then neither do I condemn you,’ Jesus declared. ‘Go now and leave your life of sin.’”
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02/26/2008 at 4:13 pm
What I meant was that, generally speaking, being in a position of authority over devotees can be very dangerous for one’s spiritual life. If the desire to lord it over material nature puts us into maya, then what happens when we want to lord it over Krishna’s devotees?
I did what I thought was right, but so does the mother who gives her son hamburgers to eat. Knowing as much, I had to consider the results. I suffered tremendous anguish with the loss of my attraction for devotional service, my family stopped having friends (all our friends were devotees), the community’s struggles increased, etc. I’ve been trying for the past year to at least come up to my old level of devotional enthusiasm, but so far it’s not even close.
I thought I knew better than other devotees. That wasn’t my normal attitude, but when this issue came up, I was compelled by what felt like blazing righteousness. I was so intent upon protecting the devotees from their guru, and protecting Srila Prabhupada’s movement from his disciples, that I forgot my humility and committed offenses against devotees who were chanting Hare Krishna since I was a little boy eating hamburgers.
Maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised when the leaders struggle and sometimes fall. One thing we can be sure of is that they will rise again.
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01/08/2009 at 3:44 pm
Vipramukhya… I aspired under his direction (siksa) knowing that Jaggadish would soon fall. Jaggadish was the first “siksa-option”… then I had an insight that Vipramukhya would soon fall. I had never been on computor nor seen a website. I shared this insight with many devotees and was told, as with Jaggadish, that I was Blasphemous. Then soon after, Vipramukhya left. I am ‘on the fringe’. I am a single woman without husband, and there is NO PROTECTION for us in ISKCON. All the same… My Mother, my Grandma, etc etc… teachers etc are all gurus to and for me. Nothing is good nor bad and everything is Krsna in the end. I am thankful for the sojourn I had with both of them. I have learned very much about myself in thier association. I will not argue anything. All I know is that I experience a much fuller spiritual reality as a result. When a persons’ field of experience offers such an opportunity, I would say, “do not fear” and embrace whatever thier LOrdships dole out to us. I suppose for other more psychically weak persons that there is sentamental attachment, and thus then, is perhaps an arena made, for work on themselves on this subject. WHO KNOWS FOR SURE WHO IS WHO AND WHICH END IS UP? I cannot slide into hell on a church pew or a Marble floor, but I feel if I do not @least thank those, whom in the past helped me along my OH, so merry way… that I will then be suffering truly, while still in this body. Currently I have advanced cancer and do not want, and cannot have those two individuals become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. I am no longer known as Mother Lisa and have the spiritual name of Lilasakti. still, no matter, I remain a servant of the servant, seven times removed. Better to be a “NoBODY”… Light Love and Laughter, SpiritualSpark108
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01/08/2009 at 3:52 pm
Wonderfully put… may we begin a domain and be spiritual beings having a human experience perhaps, and not the other way around? Kali Yuga… the age of quarrel… what to do??? chant and be happy… that is what Srila Prabhupada asked of us… ever so kindly. Positive motivation for the soul… contact me please and perhaps, just perhaps, we may be of service to Radha-Krsna.
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07/04/2010 at 3:36 pm
Radheshyam, well what a mess it all appears to be?,i was fortunate to have the darshan an company of Srila Prabhupada in 1974 and 1972,how i deserved such mercy iwill never understand, his presence his laughter and love ,was so beautiful,is so beautiful, i remember holding his stick an it was permeated with his sandalwood ,jasmine ,fragrance.i wept everytime, do i have that in any of the so called zonal gurus?,after many years away from isckon i called at the manor to be met with disdain,told there guru was “the man”,so sad,my jappa continues Srila Prabhupadas only a heartbeat away,respects to you all,tarunkrishna das,….
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