One overly pampered bhakta's view of the cracker's barrel
The Gita Comparisons posts will return next week at their regularly scheduled time. For now, enjoy this little nugget of wackiness!
I don’t read Sampradaya Sun very much. Maybe once a week, maybe less. I’ll glance at it here and there. So it was surprising when I noticed that my blog was getting a lot of hits from the Sampradaya Sun site. I didn’t post there, never have. The folks who rant at the SS seem to rant about the same things over and over and over and never get anywhere and it gets amazingly dull.
Anyway, yesterday some fellow named Janmastami dasa posted a mini-rant about me, proving once and for all that the Sampradaya Sun’s editorial policy is a very loose “anything goes” kind of policy.
Apparently, he took issue with my post questioning Srila Prabhupada’s use of “lower birth.” You can read what I wrote here.
Though possibly controversial, I thought my post was, at least, a fair question to ask. I explained my idea of “lower birth” and did take issue with Srila Prabhupada’s use of it in translating this verse. I wasn’t a jerk about it. I wasn’t offensive. I was merely questioning why he chose to do so.
And Janmastami answered (which is fine) on the Sampradaya Sun (which is sort of weird). I’m not really sure why he didn’t just comment here, since that seems the sensible thing to do. But as we’ll soon find out, “sensible” probably isn’t something he’s regularly accused of being.
He starts off with some wild ideas:
One of ISKCON’s current and more prolific bloggers is Bhakta Eric, who recently posted this alleged “spiritual knowledge”. Clearly, if the ISKCON he purports to speak for felt that he was misrepresenting the facts, they would admonish him rather than making him a contributing editor at the Planet ISKCON. If, however, the points that the powers that be want made are as volatile and politically incorrect as some now being brought up, it would behoove them to have a surrogate speak “the philosophy” vicariously for them.
First, while I am a current and prolific blogger, I’m not ISKCON’s blogger. Hell, most of my posts are about scooters and Godzilla. As far as I know, they have nothing to do with ISKCON. And why does he put “spiritual knowledge” in quotes like he’s quoting me? That’s weird. I never said that.
I’ve also never purported to speak for ISKCON. They’ve never asked me and I’m certainly not holding my breath waiting for that phone call. And while I don’t want to throw pipe bombs at ISKCON temples, you could hardly call me a company man. I’ve openly taken issue with MANY things ISKCON has done and is doing. I mean, ever read The Hing?
I’m also not an editor at Planet ISKCON. I’m actually surprised I’m still allowed to post there [thanks, btw]. I also don’t think ISKCON has the power to make people contributing editors to Planet ISKCON, though I’m not sure.
I do agree, however, that if ISKCON, unbeknownst to me, is using me as their spokesperson, they should probably find a surrogate.
His second paragraph was an incomplete sentence and a couple of quotes from my post, so I’ll not trouble you with it.
Then in his third:
We find accusations about the various errors he finds in Srila Prabhupada’s writings. One must be struck with wonder as to whom this bhakta aspires to seek initiation from. One who feels the need to issue his bhakta’s eye view of Srila Prabhupada’s mistakes, complete with his analysis and corrections, must surely find some of ISKCON’s “in good standing” gurus highly attractive.
I don’t think I was accusatory. And I never used the word “error,” but it’s cute how he tried to link me with those who say that Prabhupada’s books are filled with errors and must be changed.
And yes! One must be struck with wonder! This bhakta aspires to seek initiation from nobody. I’ve been a devotee for fifteen or so years and when Krishna sees fit to send me a guru, I will most assuredly accept. Maybe Janmastami has some suggestions? To be honest, I’ve not found anyone “highly attractive.” Sorry?
The magnitude of the deviation is obvious when some overly pampered bhakta has the audacity to criticise Srila Prabhupada’s Bhaktivedanta purports because the idiots that he has been reciting Gita with for his entire time in association with ISKCON have no real understanding or appreciation of the mass of information they almost have at their disposal. These are the times we find ourselves immersed in. Can the massive correction be far off?
I’m a little cloudy on “magnitude of the deviation.” And I’m not really sure what an “overly pampered bhakta” is. But while I don’t feel that I’m overly (or underly) pampered, I am a bhakta, and pretty happy about that. Bhakta means student, right? Actually it means “devotee,” but the connotation is on studying bhakti. And I am. But nobody feeds me peeled grapes or does my laundry for me.
I’ve also not been reciting Gita with anyone, really. I mean, sure, I do the weekly Gita comparison post and there’s some chit chat about it that I have really grown to love, but I’ve not really recited Gita with anyone since my days at New Vrndavana. Now that I think about it, that’s sort of a bummer. Hopefully when I find people to recite Gita with they’re not idiots, goodness!
I guess I am the times you find yourself immersed in. Ho-hum.
And what is this “massive correction?” He’s so cryptic!
So, that’s about it. Half the things he said meant something else and the other half didn’t mean anything at all. Sad, really.
Related posts:
03/29/2009 at 6:18 pm
thumbs up, eric. thumbs way up!
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03/29/2009 at 6:19 pm
What I figure probably happened is that Janmastami das saw my two articles that I wrote at the Sampradaya Sun last week about Brajabhumi’s website. Then he went in there to check it all out, and low and behold he saw “Eric” is a regular poster there. It seems like from what you write you are a sympathizer and supporter on her site. You seem to agree with her ideas for removing everything “Prabhupada” from ISKCON, seem to support many of her views, at least in the idea of spliting off from ISKCON, and starting your own movement, with your own books, and philosophy.
So blame me, I am probably the cause of your angst and the article about you on Sampradaya Sun. That’s why I am recommending to you to be consistent. If you state that ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada are full of shit on one website, say that on all websites, and be honest about it, at least with yourself. That is the internet – they will find out about you, and you can’t hide.
Here is the beauty of the internet. You can say almost anything you want about anybody, and it will be very difficult for anybody to reach through the screen and punch in your face. It wasn’t like that in the old days of ISKCON B.C. (before computers). If you didn’t like how things were run, especially in NVrndavan, being way the hell out of the way, and off the road, and said anything about it, they kicked your ass, or murdered you, and then threw what was left of you off temple property.
But now you can say whatever you want and most people don’t care. I wrote two articles on Sampradaya Sun about Vrajabhumi’s site, and what you (although I didn’t mention your name) and other people were saying there about Srila Prabhupada. Three – that’s right three whole Prabhupada disciples started regularly posting on Vrajabhumi’s site, plus Caitanya das (a so-called Prabhupada supporter for this week) who was already there. There are not that many of Prabhupada’s disciples who care or want to get involved in angry, confrontational, pissed off situations. I think you will find there are many people inside and outside of ISKCON who feel similar to you in varying degrees.
I feel bad that I bothered Vrajabhumi now. The few Srila Prabhupada disciples that are my friends told me not to get involved. She has her deal. It doesn’t agree with my views. I don’t really know how to say sorry to her now for the trouble I caused her. If I do say sorry, doesn’t that make me a hypocrite, and inconsistent? Once you piss off a woman, she usually hates you for life, and there is nothing you can do about it. I have to have one good screaming a match a week at something, and this week Brajabhumi’s site was the place, but I feel better now.
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03/29/2009 at 6:20 pm
Wait you’re pampered? Man everyone I know wears diapers… Who knew?
I think if people are going to give you lip about your path, the least they can do is call you “bhakta f$@in eric.” it’s only proper.
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03/29/2009 at 6:20 pm
Multi-thanks!
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03/29/2009 at 6:21 pm
I totally forgot about “well if it’s not bhakta fuckin’ Eric!”
That’s pretty awesome. I’ll have to forget about it again sometime.
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03/29/2009 at 6:22 pm
Your blog contains all new content. That’s why I like it so much.
My own blog is mostly “Hey, look at this neat thing I found!” A lot of blogs and sites are just sideline sniping.
But you create things and tell stories and provide analysis that I won’t find anyplace else. Don’t let a few naysayers discourage you. I’m glad you’re here.
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03/29/2009 at 6:22 pm
Hey thanks! I’m not planning on going anywhere. There will be posts about Krishna, back roads, Seattle parks, giant monsters invading Tokyo and scooters for years to come!
Somehow I’m going to combine all of these things into one giant post. Not sure how yet. But it’ll happen.
But I will say, I do like your blog and check it everyday (it’s one of the RSS feeds I get). I like how you post short things several times a day. I’m often long winded, which I’m working on.
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03/29/2009 at 6:23 pm
Don’t worry about Janmastami — he is a chronic doper suffered from PTSD. He was one of the last hardline supporters of Kirtananada and once he woke up he was traumatized and has been going off on devotees ever since.
He used to be a decent guy I hope he gets clean and sober again some day and we can be friends again.
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03/29/2009 at 6:24 pm
hey, what was that reference to being fed peeled grapes and getting your laundry done? you’re so offensive, that’s my next post, lol!
and what’s the bhakta effing eric thing?
i just still can’t stop laughing about the thought of iskcon having you as their spokesperson. heehee!!!
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03/29/2009 at 6:26 pm
GAH!
Through my own craziness, I accidentally deleted the last 20 comments to my blog. I was able to get most of them back via cache, so I don’t think anything was lost.
Sorry about that, but it’s mostly ok now.
Oh, and Suresh – My spamblocker thought you were spamming me. You’re basically a new commenter who commented quite a lot. It pegged you as spam and then went back and deleted all of your other posts. I was able to fetch them, so I believe all is now as it should be.
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03/29/2009 at 6:27 pm
Thanks.
I’m somewhat familiar with him from last year on SS and from some NV devotees’ stories.
OH! and I apologize. I have something for you and I keep forgetting to mail it. Will be out shortly!
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03/29/2009 at 6:32 pm
Wait.. what? I’m not a regular poster anywhere!
And there’s no blame and certainly no angst.
Now that I think about it, I think I posted a couple of times to her site a couple of weeks ago. But I seriously doubt that I said anything about taking Srila Prabhupada out of ISKCON. ISKCON’s doing a fine job of that on their own – they don’t need my help.
I don’t know Vrajabhumi, but lots of folks like conflict. If you gave that to her, you probably made her day, just like I’m sure I made Janmastami’s.
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03/29/2009 at 7:36 pm
i’m just excited that you quoted r & g are dead at the end of this here post.
its true.
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03/29/2009 at 7:45 pm
It’s true! I did. Though, I think I gave him WAY too much credit.
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03/29/2009 at 7:49 pm
“That is why we have…. Thunderdome! Two men enter, one man leaves.”
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03/29/2009 at 8:28 pm
Can’t we just get… BEYOND THUNDERDOME?!
haha!
I can’t believe I finally got to use that joke!! Thank you so much!!
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03/29/2009 at 8:32 pm
Anytime Eric, I’m sure you’ve been saving that one for a while. The joke in Melbourne is physically going beyond Thunderdome, as it’s in the furthermost suburb of metro Melbourne.
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03/29/2009 at 9:18 pm
Well its good to know that you aren’t into deliberate suppression like ISKCON Dandavats. They seem to only print kudos and high fives from devotees who blindly support everything ISKCON believes.
I really like your cool graphics here and at Hing.
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03/29/2009 at 9:22 pm
Thanks!
This is just a blog, nothing special. I mean, if comments get really insane and out of hand, I guess I’ll have to do something about it – but as it is now, it’s fine.
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03/30/2009 at 1:54 am
I am with Deva, thumbs up Eric mate. Big thumbs.
I always appreciate your honesty, it is very refreshing. I am always glad to see new posts on your blog, except those Godzilla things I mean come on : )
Keep on dancing
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03/30/2009 at 5:50 am
well thank goodness gosh’s comment didn;t get deleted. LMAO!!!!
anywho…one thing people have to realize about the planet iskcon thing…it is not an official iskcon blog! otherwise, who would want to read it?
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03/30/2009 at 8:32 am
Haha.. yeah, I know. It’s not for everyone, but the Godzilla stuff gets the most hits, so someone out there must like it.
It takes a special person to read and like everything on my blog.
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03/30/2009 at 8:33 am
Well, it was, but I put it back.
I suppose Dandavats readers would. Maybe? I wonder how it would be different.
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03/30/2009 at 12:16 pm
I may get lambasted for saying this, but it is my understanding that His Divine Grace appreciated those who questioned and not accepted blindly;stated that those who inquired and doubted developed into more serious, sincere devotees. To you, Eric, I say kudos–kudos to you, dear (sometimes misunderstood) Bhakta Eric.
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03/30/2009 at 3:19 pm
I’m not really sure on his position, really. I’ve heard things like “questioning means intelligence,” but not sure if he actually said anything like that. There are statements, however, where the inverse was true, saying that we shouldn’t question him.
It’s a tough call, but I think a lot of it comes to the individual.
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03/30/2009 at 5:50 pm
I don’t know if you have seen it yet, but there is another ludicrous article about you at Sampradaya Sun. For the life of me, I can’t figure out what they are saying about you. I had no idea you were such an important and high up official in ISKCON. Apparently you work in the book translating department at the BBT?
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03/30/2009 at 5:55 pm
Srila Prabhupada always engaged his disciples in debate. Definitely no blind followers were encouraged. Now the GBC, that is another matter.
I remember being called into Ravindra Swarup’s office in the Philly temple, and being told specifically not to read Prabhupada’s books. I was only supposed to sell them, never read them, according to him.
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03/30/2009 at 5:56 pm
It is like that in the Mormon religion too. Only the leaders are allowed to read their scriptures, and then explain the meanings to their followers.
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03/30/2009 at 6:41 pm
Ugh, just read that – thanks for the head’s up. I’m SO glad that I didn’t post my response to Sampradaya Sun.
If he would have actually read what I wrote, he wouldn’t be able to say that I wasn’t able to overlook the absence of a comma.
I do not want a single word in Srila Prabhupada’s books to be changed. Maybe I should have made that clear in my post.
The entire point of my post was to explain what “lower birth” meant. But by doing so, I wasn’t going to say “I agree with Srila Prabhupada’s wording.” I’m sorry, but I don’t. And I also don’t think that’s a big deal (and I don’t think it should be changed – they’re *his* books, we’ve got no right to change them).
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03/30/2009 at 6:42 pm
The GBC were to be his representatives. Of course, they abused (and are abusing/ignoring) that position.
It feels so weird. No matter what I say, I’m going to end up offending everyone.
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03/30/2009 at 8:21 pm
It is a really strange time right now in ISKCON. Everyone, myself included is constantly bickering and there is no peace.
I bet not one person ever read one word of what you have written on Planet ISKCON. People are very superficial. Within a day or two no one at Sampradaya Sun will even remember your name – Next!
You have written something about the Bhagavad-gita verse about, about a question of lower birth. We are all of lower birth. I don’t understand why that upsets you, or what you don’t understand? It may put people off the you may be trying to attract. It is like the Matrix though, people are in illusion to their real reality, and think that everything is ok, when it might not actually be so.
Would you rather the Bhagavad-gita didn’t say that, or delete it off? The problem with all the stuff that Prabhupada said, is that he said it, it is inescapable now. Nobody can hide from it who lives in ISKCON. If ISKCON were to delete it off now then there would endless debates of why they did that, and what are they trying to hide.
You see – there would never be any peace. What is done, is done. Try to find some positive stuff to concentrate on that you agree with even if it has to be outside of ISKCON. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with everyone or become blind to what you don’t like or don’t agree with. At the same time some things just can’t be explained, shit happens.
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03/30/2009 at 8:44 pm
Wow… after 60 some comments, someone finally asks “eric, what the hell were you talking about?”
What Krishna was saying in the Gita wasn’t that we are all of lower birth. He wasn’t even saying that women, vaisyas and sudreas are of lower birth. Krishna’s point was that it doesn’t matter where you come from.
My issue was that in his translation, Srila Prabhupada was defining “lower birth” by using words from the verse itself.
Again, Krishna isn’t defining “lower birth” in the Gita. He is listing examples of those who can approach Him: those of lower birth, women, vaisyas, as well as sudras. Srila Prabhupada translated it as: those of lower birth (women, vaisyas, as well as sudras). Saying that women, vaisyas and sudras are of lower birth.
And whether you agree with that or not, that isn’t was the Bhagavad-gita is saying. In the original Sanskrit, “lower birth” is separate from “women, vaisyas, sudras.”
If you want to get really technical, like I said in my post, it’s not even “lower birth,” but “troubled womb.” A closer translation might be “troubled homes” or “troubled families.”
I was questioning why Srila Prabhupada would translate it like that.
However, I don’t believe that the books should be changed. Not a word.
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03/31/2009 at 12:39 am
I stumbled across this site and like to thank you for the interesting Gita comparison blog. I just wanted to mention – in case you don´t know – there´s a been a controversy recently about a lecture (Holland, July 13, 2005) by Srila Narayana Maharaja in which he clarified that the misogynous version of 9.32. is not only an incorrent translation of the verse but also an editing mistake. Srila Prabhupada´s original Gita from 1968 uses the correct translation ‘O son of Pritha, anyone who will take shelter in Me, whether a woman, or a merchant, or born in a low family, can yet approach the Supreme Destination.’ which had been changed to “O son of Prtha, Arjuna, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth – women, vaisyas (merchants) and sudras (workers) – still, they can attain the supreme destination.” in the Gita edition from 1972.
Maharaja defends Srils Prabhupada´s integrity by pointing out that he could never have written this. It must have been changed by some BBT editors.
Ironically some people on the internet didn´t get it and tried to spread the rumor that Narayana Mahraja was blaspheming Srila Prabhupada. Actually what he did was just the opposite.
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03/31/2009 at 7:31 am
NV does seem to produce/attract an awful lot of cult hoppers, huh?
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03/31/2009 at 7:32 am
hahahaha!!! deva, you’re hilarious!
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03/31/2009 at 7:33 am
Thank you very much. That’s really interesting. I have the ’68 Gita and didn’t even think to check it (since I thought it was basically an edited down version of what eventually became the ’72 Gita).
I have to say, I was mistaken about that, thank you.
The verse from the ’68 Gita (since it bares repeating):
O son of Pritha, anyone who will take shelter in Me, whether a woman, or a merchant, or born in a low family, can yet approach the Supreme Destination.
I would be very willing to admit that it was an editing mistake. Here, Srila Prabhupada’s own words back up my problem with Srila Prabhupada’s other own words.
However, while it (for me) clears up this verse, there are other purports (though I’m not sure about other verses) that are issues.
The vast majority of controversial quotes that I’ve come across are from room conversations/morning walks and sometimes lectures. Very few come from his writing (though there are definitely some that do).
This could be that most people pointing out these quotes are still doing their best to be devotees and if they found something in scripture that they don’t care for, it would rock their boat a bit too much. Or (and I’m hoping) those quotes simply do not exist.
I had heard about this Narayana Maharaja controversy, but didn’t realize it was related to this verse. I had also heard that a similar editing mistake took place in Maharaja’s original English edition of his Bhagavad-gita, but was later changed.
This does put my mind, and hopefully the minds of others, at rest in some ways. If only this were the only quote.
Thank you very much for pointing out my error and omission.
I think I might start referencing the ’68 Gita (while still primarily using the ’72 Gita) in my Gita Comparison posts.
Thanks very much!
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03/31/2009 at 7:34 am
I don’t think blind following was ever encouraged.
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03/31/2009 at 7:36 am
And I also don’t think that’s a big deal (and I don’t think it should be changed – they’re *his* books, we’ve got no right to change them).
Thumbs up! I agree.
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03/31/2009 at 7:43 am
Okay, I finally get it now! I had actually read that part over and over, trying to get it.
One way would list 4 things.
One way would list 1 thing with an explanation of that one thing. Gotcha!
But really, couldn’t people be offended either way? Like, “Oh, wow, EVEN women, huh?” (If it’s one of the 4 things.) Hope that makes sense.
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03/31/2009 at 7:49 am
What?! Noooo. Are you trying to say that after Bhaktipada went south that they just hopped onto the nearest guru? Nooooooo…
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03/31/2009 at 7:51 am
You could, sure, I mean some folks are easily offended. But I think most smart folks would realize that in these times, and in many cultures, the religious stuff was left to the men. Here is a philosophy that is for everybody.
This, to me, is the essence of the sankirtana movement. It is for everybody.
It’s really easy to see the difference between the two verses if you read both of Srila Prabhupada’s translations.
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03/31/2009 at 12:59 pm
hahahahhaha!!! quite a few did hop that bus. “it’s the same message but in new dress.”
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03/31/2009 at 1:01 pm
“This, to me, is the essence of the sankirtana movement. It is for everybody. This, to me, is the essence of the sankirtana movement. It is for everybody.”
absolutely!
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03/31/2009 at 1:24 pm
So nice you said it twice!
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04/01/2009 at 5:54 pm
I just posted a new article at Sampradaya Sun. I was going to mention you in it Eric, so that maybe you might actually go and read it. It is pretty cool. I was writing it until 2:00 in the morning last night. I’ll let you know if they actually print it.
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04/01/2009 at 6:57 pm
Hm. well, I hope it’s well received. I’ve figured out that I read SS when people tell me about something on there. Or I read something referencing something on there.
I do really appreciate the “Changes” series though. That’s pretty cool.
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04/01/2009 at 9:55 pm
I like the Vaishnava history, art, and culture the best. I really don’t like the ISKCON or devotee bashing that goes on. Of course my article isn’t that nice, but it is what it is, because that’s how I felt yesterday, and today is today. The wierd thing is I felt so right on when I wrote it, but now I wonder if I am wrong?
I realized today that I need to study more to try to understand what devotees like Vrajabhumi are feeling. I don’t really understand women’s issues and haven’t studied or listened to anything about it.
The main thing I am afraid of is being somebody’s slave, and being under someone elses control. As much as she doesn’t want me to tell her what to do, I don’t want her to rule me either. I don’t like it when women push me around and tell me what to do. I am sure they don’t like the same from me either.
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04/02/2009 at 7:02 am
I think you’re right. You should study a bit more about that. Just try to have a rational conversation (in person) with a woman into womens rights, etc. If everyone remains calm, an understanding can usually be reached.
And you’re right. Nobody should rule anybody else. We have freewill and intelligence.
A good rule to keep in mind is that golden rule (as spoken in the Mahabharata by Brihaspati: “One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.”
Also, in the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says: One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contamination, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn’t care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and engaged in devotional service, is very dear to Me. (Bg 12.18-19).
Good things to keep in mind.
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04/03/2009 at 8:32 am
I really appreciate your attitude, Eric. I think it´s better to be honest and straight forward when you can´t agree with some things. I think our faith is not genuine if we only follow outwardly when still have doubts and questions regarding the philosophy and teachings of Srila Prabhupada and our other acharyas.
Before I got initiated my Gurudeva told me “First you have to check if I am really worthy to be a Guru. Don´t follow blindly.” We can´t have a discussion with the authors who have already left this world, but we can direct our questions to those who are with us on this planet and let them clarify our doubts.
In my case my Gurudeva was able to anwer each and every question I have had profoundly (and every day new questions come up). Only by reading the books I could have never understand their content. I realized it was necessary for me to have a living guide who I could talk to. My Gurudeva is aware that there are editing mistakes in his own published books. How could it not be? There are so many conditioned souls involved in that process.
So, it´s not bad to question everything when we have a inquisitive mood and want to find out what this Bhakti is all about.
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